Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 18:10:53 +1000 From: Matthew Kirkcaldie Subject: Throwing Muses discography: VERY long Since there's been very little actual 4AD content on this list, it seems like a good time to post this just-completed labour of love. Feel free to mail me and offer comments, suggestions, additions, anything! My address is matthewk@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au I hope this is interesting to some or many of you. Matthew. Throwing Muses - a very annotated but incomplete discography (second edition, 27th May 1994) Thanks to Lars Ingebrigtsen for extra material. For more pictorial content and less excess wordage, try his superb "Eyesore" hypertext pages. Quotes from Kristin Hersh from various Melody Maker, NME and Select interviews 1987-1994. Filler and gratuitous opinion by Matthew Kirkcaldie, devoted fan and keeper of the flame... 1985: Throwing Muses consisted of: Kristin Hersh - lead voice, guitar, piano Tanya Donelly - guitar, voice, percussion Elaine Adamedes - bass, voice David Narcizo - drums, voice Kristin and Tanya are half-sisters. Kristin was married, and much of her music deals with the horror and boredom of domestic life. Early recordings included: (Blowing Fuses) _Throwing Muses_ stand up / dirt is on the floor (Elaine Adamedes)/ the party / santa claus A 7" single released by the band in 1985 and later re-pressed by the fan club in 1989. Some copies have an unlisted instrumental included. I seem to remember that "The Party" is credited to "Pop Donelly", but that's not definite. Demo 1985 - bootleg and self-distributed cassettes call me / sinkhole / green (T) / hate my way / vicky's box / america (she can't say no) / fear / raise the roses (T) / and a she-wolf after the war / fish [here, as in all the entries, a (T) after a song indicates that it was written and sung by Tanya Donelly] Hard to find, described by Lars as "incredible", which I can well believe. Interesting to see the songs that resurfaced many years later. Kristin: "I had no idea we were anything but a rock band until people said that I was crazy. [laughs] They just kept talking about how crazy I was and how weird our music was." Leslie Langston replaced Elaine Adamedes on bass sometime during their five years of playing around Boston, MA. They were signed by UK label 4AD and released a self-titled album regarded by many as their finest work. It's a fantastic and arresting collection of songs, a unique identity straight off. CAD 607 _Throwing Muses_ produced by Gil Norton call me / green (T) / hate my way / vicky's box / rabbit's dying america (she can't say no) / fear / stand up / soul soldier / delicate cutters Kristin: "We were 19 at the time. I was pregnant with Dylan. It's weird for me, because my voice was 'her' voice. I literally turned into this evil other person, and I was so terrified of it - 'I can't let her in to where the baby is!' - and you can hear that. But, every now and then, 'I'd' come back. I didn't listen to it for years, but now I hear it and it's fine. I was screaming in tune, I was learning my craft. I can turn 'it' on now and feel great strength, but then it was very difficult." BAD 701 _Chains Changed_ produced by Gil Norton finished / reel (T) / snail head / cry baby cry This EP is pretty hard to get now (I'm told) but I think Reprise were going to include it on the re-released CD of the debut album. This still has not surfaced, so it seems less likely now. The only CD version is the Japanese _12 Inch 1987_ 4AD collection. Note that the UK CD of _Throwing Muses_ does not include it. Initial copies with a poster. CAD 703 _Lonely Is An Eyesore_ 4AD compilation album This has "Fish" (released also in a different form on a compilation from C'est La Mort records), a line from which is the album title...worth getting for the various artists on it. [Useful information for the 4AD list, huh?] The version on the video is different - sounds like a "live in the studio" recording made for the clip. MAD 706 _The Fat Skier_ produced by Mark van Hecke garoux des larmes / pools in eyes (T) / a feeling / soap and water / and a she-wolf after the war / you cage / soul soldier The version of "Soul Soldier" here is on a side of its own and is extremely long due to recorded studio chatter (including a backwards tape of people talking about kites!) and an odd bass and percussion instrumental piece which fades in and out. It had an art-house video made by a friend of the band for her art project. The part which is actually the song is, in fact, the same recording as is on _Throwing Muses_. The other 6 tracks are on one side which is 33rpm (while the "Soul Soldier" side is 45). Kristin: "We seemed to confuse people because we were just like the women you met every day. A lot of this 'women in rock' thing is just them saying, 'Huh! I can act like a man if I want!' Well, how feminist is that? We worked with Mark van Hecke, from the Violent Femmes, we got this raw acoustic sound. I love the cover." "I don't know where the fat skier is from... she is like a thought, that one would think is too pregnant to be graceful, but one would be wrong. Like the thought I send you." [on the cover] CAD 802 _House Tornado_ produced by Gary Smith colder / mexican women / river (T)/ juno / marriage tree / run letter / saving grace / drive / downtown / giant (T) / walking in the dark What can I say about how good this album is? Not enough, anyway. The UK CD of this album includes all of the A-side of _The Fat Skier_, i.e. the whole album except for the long version of "Soul Soldier". Don't know why it was left off... there's plenty of room on the disc! (Maybe for diehard collectors to feel special...) Kristin: "I now see that as the most perfect record. It's so much itself, it's so intricate, it's small, it's completely feminine. Cyclical. The last chord of the last song, 'Walking in the Dark', fades back into the first chord of the first song, 'Colder'. "I feel very similar about Dylan and _House Tornado_. Dylan is very dark, and has very sad eyes that are turning in on his brain, the very definition of introverted." Dylan was a year old while this album was being made. Also from 1988 is a promo 12": saving grace / an intimate piece of conversation with david narcizo and kristin hersh The latter is apparently some kind of song rather than an interview. CAD 901 _Hunkpapa_ produced by Gary Smith devil's roof / bea / dizzy / no parachutes / dragonhead (T) say goodbye / fall down / I'm alive / angel (T) / mania the burrow / take An album loved and loathed in equal numbers. "Dizzy" was a bit of a pop throwaway, but it *did* get them a much wider audience. UK CD includes "Santa Claus" from the "Dizzy" single release. Kristin: "...the songs could have been a little better. Our whole heads weren't in it. We were trying to be nice, and there's no place for nice." BAD 903 "Dizzy" produced by Gary Smith dizzy (single mix) / santa claus / mania / downtown "Mania" and "Downtown" were recorded live at the Town and Country Club, London, 1st May 1988. At this concert they were supported by Pixies (!) and the live tracks on Pixies' single "Gigantic" were recorded at the same concert. During 1990 the band went on a punishing round of touring which left them huge financial troubles and exhaustion. Leslie Langston decided to leave because she was marrying the guy who did lighting on the tour. She was replaced by Fred Abong. The Wolfgang Press' album _Queer_ features Leslie's inimitable bass style as well as some singing. Listen to "Honey Tree"...great! BAD 1001 "Counting Backwards" produced by Dennis Herring and Throwing Muses counting backwards / amazing grace / same sun / cottonmouth "Amazing Grace" is the old song...done brilliantly! Note: I think "Same Sun" and "Cottonmouth" are two of the most brilliant tracks Kristin has put her name to...but _House Tornado_ is still far and away my favourite. CAD 1002 _The Real Ramona_ produced by Dennis Herring counting backwards / him dancing / red shoes / graffiti / golden thing ellen west / dylan / hook in her head / not too soon (T) honeychain (T) / say goodbye / two step (Throwing Muses) "Say Goodbye" is a huge extension of the acoustic fragment on _Hunkpapa_ and is very different in feel, pretty apocalyptic. On this album, only the lyrics to "Two Step" were printed, as opposed to the previous releases which had at least part of every song. Kristin: "I just didn't wanna be there any more. We were going nowhere, it was just getting thrown back in my face. Throwing Muses had come to mean something to people, and they copped an attitude about it instead of listening to the music. And if you really love your children, you kind of don't wanna put them out into that hostile atmosphere." BAD 1015 "Not Too Soon" produced by Dennis Herring and Throwing Muses not too soon (T) / red shoes (remix) / cry baby cry / dizzy (version) "Cry Baby Cry" is the John Lennon / Paul McCartney song from the Beatles' _White Album_ (?), as opposed to the Kristin Hersh original of the same name on _Chains Changed_. Two singles off one album? The plot was thickening. Tanya Donelly, who had been involved in the Breeders and a This Mortal Coil project as well, announced her long-secret decision to quit Throwing Muses. This had been decided before the tour which accompanied _The Real Ramona_ and felt like the only way of preserving the relationship between Kristin and Tanya. Kristin, meanwhile, had had a very ugly custody battle for her son Dylan (of whom the song "Dylan" is a "portrait in sounds" as she described it) which she lost, due to the instability of working in a touring band. The Musicians' Union brought a lawsuit claiming royalties owed to them from Throwing Muses performances in just about every US state, and with debts of about $30 000 she decided that the band could not die. The original idea was for Kristin and David Narcizo to continue as Khulli Loach, but it turned out that the name was already being used by another band, and the associations with the old name were worthwhile (and, as principal songwriter and singer, she had every right to use it). Spookily, they later found out that the common name for the khulli loach (a fish) is the half-banded loach...! Tanya took Fred Abong with her to her new band Belly, while David and Kristin enlisted the help of Leslie Langston to make another album, which Kristin says "had to be made" because of the relief songwriting gives her. Kristin has suffered from bipolar disorder for many years (manic depression in older terms) and, though controlled, it has provided the spark for much of her work. Kristin: "There are a lot of words you can call it and a lot of drugs you can take to suppress it. But I think it's just the story about what *real* songs do to a person. We just don't have very many real songwriters to tell you about it." The _Matter of Degrees_ soundtrack (1992) includes "Matter of Degrees", an early version of _Red Heaven_'s "Backroad" recorded before Tanya left. I think this is the last release with both Kristin and Tanya on it. BAD 2012 "Firepile" EP (Part One) produced by Throwing Muses firepile / manic depression / snailhead / city of the dead "Manic Depression" is an instrumental cover of the Hendrix classic (surely tongue in cheek!) while "Snailhead" is the song from "Chains Changed". BADD 2012 "Firepile" EP (Part Two) produced by Throwing Muses firepile (remix) / jak / ride into the sun / handsome woman "Jak" is by Peter Prescott of Volcano Suns. "Ride Into the Sun" is an instrumental cover of a song by the Velvet Underground. CAD 2013 _Red Heaven_ produced by Throwing Muses furious / firepile / dio / dirty water / stroll / pearl / summer st / vic / backroad / the visit / dovey / rosetta stone / carnival wig Leslie Langston plays bass. Bob Mould (of Husker Du fame) sings on "Dio". A bit less stunning on the songwriting front, but at least it still proved that the band were still alive. Initial UK CDs came with... KH 1 _Kristin Hersh Live at Maxwell's, Hoboken_ juno / marriage tree / pearl / stand up | dovey | mexican women / run letter / soap and water / rabbit's dying / cry baby cry / counting backwards | handsome woman / take / soul soldier / bea / delicate cutters Just Kristin and an acoustic guitar...spellbinding, and interesting for the way songs sound stripped right down...better in some cases, different in most. "Cry Baby Cry" is her own song rather than the Beatles one. The version of "Juno" that opens this is one of the highlights of "music as I know it". TAD 2019 _The Curse_ engineered by Gary Stewart and Mike Jeffries manic depression / counting backwards / fish / hate my way / furious / devil's roof / snailhead / firepile / finished / take / say goodbye / mania / two step / delicate cutters / cottonmouth / pearl / vic / bea A temporary release of performances at the Grand Theatre, Clapham, London, on 8th and 9th October, 1992. Not the greatest of their releases, though it is interesting listening and includes live versions of some less common songs. "Manic Depression" is the Hendrix cover; before it can be heard the studio version of "Ride Into the Sun" from the "Firepile" EP played over the PA as an intro. Billy O'Connell (manager, husband, father of Kristin's second son Ryder) convinced Kristin that it was worth recording a lot of her own songs that she had around but hadn't used for Throwing Muses. The world owes him a great debt, I think. BAD 4001 Kristin Hersh: "Your Ghost", produced by Lenny Kaye and KH your ghost / the key / uncle june and aunt kiyoti / when the levee breaks The single itself seemed striking at first, but wore thinner. The b-sides on this EP are excellent, though, and really add to the material on the album. "When the Levee Breaks" is a great cover of the Led Zeppelin song from the (ubiquitous) self-title album. "Uncle June and Aunt Kiyoti" is a co-write with W. J. Hersh, a person I know nothing of apart from the name. Surely not husband Billy (William) O'Connell in disguise... Lenny Kaye has worked with Suzanne Vega, among others, but thankfully hasn't blunted any of Kristin's edginess and talent. CAD 4002 Kristin Hersh: _Hips and Makers_, produced by Lenny Kaye and KH your ghost / beestung / teeth / sundrops / sparky / houdini blues / a loon / velvet days / close your eyes / me and my charms / tuesday night / the letter / lurch / cuckoo / hips and makers A quietly stunning album which has songs like I never thought she'd produce again. Intricate, powerful and accomplished. "Teeth" is apparently about Ryder (teething?). Michael Stipe guest sings on "Your Ghost"; Jane Scarpantoni plays 'cello (as she did on REM's "World Leader Pretend") and Kristin does every other thing, including playing the guitar with surprising virtuosity and banging a large drum in "Your Ghost". "The Letter" is a very old song that Kristin used to play with Throwing Muses, and was cajoled into recording after Billy heard a version that Kristin suspects David Narcizo had on tape, because she refused to play it for years. The memories made her vomit. "Houdini Blues" is also co-written by W. J. Hersh (both seem to have family history themes, my guess is it's an ancestor who inspired the contents). "Cuckoo" is a traditional tune arranged very sweetly by the lady in question. BAD 4006 Kristin Hersh: _Strings_ EP Strings: recorded and engineered by John Fryer at Blackwing, arranged by Martin McCarrick. Vocals: recorded and engineered by Paul Q. Kolderie at The Outpost, Stoughton, MA. a loon / sundrops / me and my charms / velvet days A lovely set of string quartet reinterpretations of these songs from _Hips and Makers_. A version of "The Key" from the same sessions turned up on a Select "Rare Tracks" cassette shortly afterwards. The genuinely moving video for "A Loon" shows Kristin holding Dylan in the middle of the string players as she sings, then for the quiet part they walk around snow-covered streets together. It seems that this song might also be for Dylan, in which case he's an exceptionally lucky kid... Forthcoming: Throwing Muses _University_ (early 1995) Tracks possibly include "Hazing" and "Big Yellow Gun". Recorded in Daniel Lanois' Kingsway Studios, New Orleans. Kristin on songwriting: "Songwriting happened to me, instead of me happening to it. "I literally have a fever when I'm going to write a song. My hair stands on end, it's like pop-rocks in my head. And if I don't write a song, that can turn into a seizure. When I was younger I would see the images in a song as hallucinations. I couldn't see the difference between a song image and something just coming out of my wall. Because they're real. If they have heat and energy and form, they're real. So a fourteen-year-old isn't going to know what it means. I just thought, 'Oh, I grew up and got crazy.' As much as the job of songwriting fucked up my life - *hard* - and I never asked it to be there in the first place, it's also the highest high. I can't shut the door. I opened it once and I could never shut it again. I tried like hell, but you just get some songs stuck in your body and they become poison. "They are speaking for my sweat and my skin, and not my brain. I hope I'm only living through my sensuality and my skin, and letting my brain reflect on it if I need to. It's the only place where I really don't lie, I don't hurt anybody else, because your body just tells the truth. That's where my talent lies: in just... not lying." "If we could just have more real music. It's really important to me. It moved my spine so hard, once, and I never changed again." Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:26:26 +0000 From: Andrew Norman Subject: Re: The curse of the throwing muses On 7 Dec 97 at 15:08, Andrew Barg wrote: > Most recently I saw The Real Ramona for real cheap so I bought > that as well -- somebody told me it was their best release -- but > it seemed pretty mediocre too. The only bright spot I was able to > discern was the super-catchy "Not Too Soon". After that album I > pretty much concluded that they weren't the band for me. "The Real Ramona" seems to be the number one choice of people who (to my mind) are missing what was great about the Muses - see my previous message, this album was the first they made without the essential Leslie Langston on bass. Every now and then someone asks this sort of question on usenet and gets responses from people who see them as some sort of alterna-rock band who were a bit like Belly but not as good - and TRR is always the album they recommend. I'd go for "House Tornado" (especially the UK 4AD version with "The Fat Skier" appended), or (as someone else suggested) the eponymous debut. They are more "difficult" than the later albums, but they are the reason some of us *love* the band (and that's not hyperbole, there are very few bands I have ever felt as passionate about as the early Muses). Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:13:34 +0000 From: David Thorpe Subject: Re: The curse of the throwing muses I can't add a great deal to the comments made about the throwing muses, but can provide a second opinion which runs very much along the lines of those who've heard all of the throwing muses, rather than the albums from The Real Ramona onwards. The first album is a jagged affair, the songs often changing tempo disjointedly half-way through, fragile obscure lyrics and the most amazing emotion I think I've ever, ever heard from one set of songs. It took a little while to get inside, but frankly I've never been able to put it down since, and it's never bored me. In contrast, <> mini-lp seemed to have much of the disjointedness but not so much of the emotion of the first record. "You cage" is probably the best song on this record, and the LP version has extra random percussion and baby ditherings on "Soul Soldier" that the version tacked onto the end of <> does not. <> is a fine album, far more conventional than either of the previous offerings, including additional instruments like a piano for the first time. Some of the songs could even be considered to be pop. Easier to listen to, but still distinctively Throwing Muses. <> continued along the line of least resistance - and I think came out much worse for it. Not a bad album but much of it pure pop and very obviously geared towards getting a single "Dizzy" out of it. Nothing wrong with that, I guess. As far as I can remember there was a long period between <> and the next album <>, and as has been said, a change of bass player. I remember being very anamored to the single <> not so much for track one but for the B-sides "Same Sun" and "Cottonmouth" (plus I think a Country & Western Amazing Grace). These I remember thinking were truly a return to form - they seemed to return to the more emotional, less poppy side I loved. But the album itself wasn't the great revelation I thought it would be - if anything, it was even more pop-based than it's predecessor, although by now I guess I was starting to get used to the idea of a differently-abled Throwing Muses. But there were still a couple of gems on that album (the song with sugar in the hole in the shoe comes to mind, whatever it's called). The next phase is clouded in mystery for me - before a mild return to form with <> and then <> - both of which I feel should have been spinning around much more than they actually have done. I remember donwloading some multimedia <> experience a couple of years and being amazed by how good the short excepts sounded. I may still discover the delights of <>. I remember liking the hidden extra track about bikinis or beaches or something. The bright light for the past few years has been Kristin Hersh's <>. For me this album is very much a return to the more emotional early days - it's very difficult to create pop with an acoustic guitar and a cello. I guess given this, her new LP due next year, the first Belly LP <> and Tanya Donelly's solo project, we have a plethora of good Throwing Muses music, but I still find it hard to convince myself that the days of <> and the first album are over! Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:36:08 -0600 From: Jeremy L Orr Subject: cursing about throwing muses ---from David Thorpe: > I remember being very anamored to the single < Backwards>> not so much for track one but for the B-sides > "Same Sun" and "Cottonmouth" (plus I think a Country & > Western Amazing Grace). Is that where "Cottonmouth" comes from? I'd never heard the song before until I picked up _The Curse_. The US version of the "Counting Backwards" single from Sire only has two non-LP tracks: "Same Sun" and "Amazing Grace". Does anyone have any idea why "Cottonmouth" was left off the US version? I'd love to know, though I don't expect to ever find out. And jeez, if they had to leave a track off, why not "Amazing Grace"? What a bunch of crap... Anyway, as far as recommendations, I would second (or third or fourth) the opinion that their first two albums are far and away their best work. _House Tornado_ was the first one that I bought, and I have a lot of memories that go with it (like listening to it while getting dressed for my senior prom, hehehe), so I tend to like it the best. But I would concede that _Throwing Muses_ is their best work. It just gets better and better every time I listen to it...and the older I get, the more impact the songs begin to have. Frankly, there's a lot of that first album that disturbs me so much that I really have to be in the right frame of mind to listen to it. It never ceases to amaze me that such a young band (Kristin, Tanya, and David were all 19 or 20, I believe) could make an album of such terrifying/exhilarating emotional depth and musical complexity. ---Jeremy